| Where to store |
Date:
August 04, 1997 04:54 PM
Author: Gary
(ggeppelt@galstar.com)
Subject: Where to store my food.
Food is to stored in a cool, dark, dry place.
I live in an all-American 2 story slab house with an attached 2 car garage. The garage is real hot in the summer, part of probally freezes in the winter and I don't want to stack buckets (or bags) of grain in the liviing room. Where do I put it????
(http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=16&Message_ID=1003)
Date:
August 04, 1997 05:49 PM
Author: Matthew Adamson
(m_adamson@hotmail.com)
Subject: Food storage, etc.
I live in a first-floor, one-bedroom apartment with a walk-in closet. Thankfully, I have a talent for organizing things. I am currently building a stockpile of supplies in my closet and intend to place my grain supplies in my bedroom behind movable screens. That's the only way I know of to "live" with it on a continuing basis. My apartment gets into the mid-70's with A/C in the summer and upper 60's in the winter. I figure that will keep it for several years if it is nitrogen-packed.
I'll be buying nonhybrid seeds to keep in canning jars wrapped in bubble wrap (just in case) in my freezer.
My sister is a physician through whom I'll stockpile some medical essentials inexpensively.
I intend to get a bicycle, extra tires and a couple of tire repair kits for transportation.
It may also be prudent to figure out what you would need for an evacuation pack (Personally, I will not be able to move ahead of time). I will have at the ready a dolly loaded with a box of water-filled containers, a folding solar cooker, a suitcase of food and cooking supplies. In a backpack, I will have several changes of clothes, a first aid kit, a tire repair kit, AM/FM/short wave radio, flashlight with extra batteries, maps in ziplock bags, and vital personal papers rolled in a Tupperware pasta container. Strapped underneath the backpack will be a sleeping bag, a roll of plastic sheeting, and a rolled up tarp. [FYI: My cooking fuel supply will be small cans filled with rolled corrugated cardboard and parafin. My stove will be a vented coffee can.]
Since we are all quite individual in our needs, everyone will have to make different plans. I hope mine spark some ideas in those needing a few.
(http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=16&Message_ID=1007)
Date:
August 04, 1997 05:57 PM
Author: Al Durtschi
(rcox@mail.lcc.whecn.edu)
Subject: Finding a place in cramped quarters.
People who live in an apartment or a small house often have trouble finding places to put their food storage so their place doesn't look junked out all the time. The last thing someone wants to see is a stack of 6 gallon buckets behind the front room door! There are ways of getting around this. We have done most of the following ideas in our family:
1. Get rid of the bed box springs. Put down one layer of buckets or two layers of boxes and lay a 1/2 inch piece of plywood (or pieces if you have a larger bed) and throw your mattress on top of this. Your wife (if you are fortunate enough to have one of them) can sew a dust ruffle and hang it around the plywood so no one would ever notice it was there. You can do this in just about every bedroom in the house.
2. Make a false wall in your living room by hanging a ceiling to floor - wall to wall curtain about two feet out from one wall. You can stack more buckets, bags and cases of food behind this than you will need room for. (This was our experience, at least.) We did this in an already small front room but quickly became accustomed to the smaller space.
3. Have one of the kids sacrifice their closet for the cause and let them double up their clothes with a sibling in another closet.
4. Do you have a dry crawl space? Throw it in there. Don't put it in the attic - way too hot in the summer time.
5. Be as creative as you can. Look around your house to find places to hide it or build around it.
Al
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Date:
August 21, 1997 03:28 PM
Author: Joe Jeffries
(joejeffries@hotmail.com)
Subject: How about in the ground?
Dear Al,
I got some of your wheat shipped to Florida in your best 6 gallon bucket.
There is no such thing as a "cool, dry place" in Florida! -- at least not outside of your air conditioned rooms. What will the shelf life of these buckets of wheat be in my hot garage? I know it won't be 10 years, but even 4 years would be handy!
These buckets look really good, really strong, and well sealed.
There are a lot of great reasons to bury these right in the ground, including security reasons.
So, would that work? Can we bury these plastic buckets right in the dirt?
thanks -joe
(http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=16&Message_ID=1701)
Date:
August 26, 1997 05:09 PM
Author: Al Durtschi
(rcox@mail.lcc.whecn.edu)
Subject: Burying buckets
I had to call the head office on this one. They told me a couple of things.
1. In a recent flood in Washington State a family had several superpails in their basement. When they went to clean up these buckets were floating on top of the mess or stuck in the mud. On opening them, they were all dry.
2. These buckets haven't been approved for storing in the ground and there isn't any data to support this idea either posatively or negatively. If you are going to put them in the ground, please do it at your own risk.
3. If you would like to try this, we suggest you only bury Superpails as they have that mylar bag as extra insurance against your food getting wet.
Al
(http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=16&Message_ID=1877)
Date:
August 27, 1997 12:22 AM
Author: Will Richards
(will_richards@hotmail.com)
Subject: Burying
Al, Buckets buried long term will not stay dry. You might improve the odds with mylar. I don't recommend burying food buckets as they are easy to lose and they leak long term. I know this does not sound right, but so does pvc pipe long term. I think floating buckets would not leak becuase of the decreased surface tension, their floating. If you must, try to protect them by building a catche hole and lining it. My experience has been a higher level of loss then I can tolerate. Will
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Date:
August 28, 1997 01:15 PM
Author: Al Durtschi
(rcox@mail.lcc.whecn.edu)
Subject: Will's right!!!
Will's right. It would be many times better to build some kind of underground room than to actually bury your buckets. And I expect that Will is also right that many buckets would permit small amounts of moisture into the bucket over many months or years. It actually wouldn't take a lot of moisture to make your dry packed food unusable.
Take a look at our cellars page for guidelines and 3 examples of how to do this.
Al
(http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=16&Message_ID=1951)
Date:
February 02, 1998 02:54 PM
Author: Chrissy
(chrissyb@usa.net)
Subject: Burying
What if your water table is very high? My big dog can get in a digging mood and during the rainy season "strike water". If you have a perk test done for septic tank done during that time you will have to build a mountain to put your septic tank in. (I live in NW Fl. by the way)
We live in a fairly rural area, but I would feel better if when the time comes I could "make secure" some of the provisions I have worked so hard to accumulate.
I have thought about this a lot lately and cannot figure out a way to have a cache that would not be easily found, short of burying. Thus my delimma.
Any suggesitons?
(http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=16&Message_ID=12232)
Date:
August 18, 1997 02:05 AM
Author: Searcher
(searcher18@hotmail.com)
Subject: Temperature control
My biggest problem is not so much the space where to store the food but keeping the temperature low enough to extend the shelf life. Does anyone have any ideas on how to do this, especially if there may not be any electricity?
(http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=16&Message_ID=1596)
Date:
August 23, 1997 03:17 PM
Author: Geri Guidetti
(arkinst@concentric.net)
Some folks who live in very hot or very cold climates sink 33 gallon trash barrels into the ground. A power auger does a great job of loosening up all of the dirt to do this, otherwise it is one heck of a tough task. That's a good three-plus feet down. You leave only about an inch or two of the perimeter of the barrel above ground--just enough to fit the lid on securely. Obviously, you don't put the barrel/hole out in the hot sun. The best place is in a covered spot, shady, in a shed, etc.
Then, depending on your weather, pile loose straw or hay on top, or even some attic insulation will work--anything that minimizes the daily fluctuation of temperature. This works in both hot and cold climates. Folks in frigid areas often use these buried barrels as miniature cold cellars to store garden veggies, without processing, below the usual soil frost line in their region.
I hope this will help you some....Geri Guidetti
(http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=16&Message_ID=1750)
Date:
August 24, 1997 01:22 PM
Author: Will Richards
(will_richards@hotmail.com)
Subject: Inground storage & shelter
Dr's
I am currently working on a shelter & storage prototype that will be ideal for storage. In my search for suitable designs I have found that very few suitable systems exist. They are either cost prohibative or will not give the necessary protection from storms and fallout. The system I am working on will allow most of us to cut the cost by suppling the labour. It is labour intensive. I also am trying to meet at least 1000 PF standard for fallout protection. You should be able to build it for about 6 dollars a square foot or less. The system is modular so the total cost will depend on size you build. I will video and photo the process and then make them available with a guide for a fee. I should have these available in two to three months.
(http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=16&Message_ID=1766)
Date:
August 24, 1997 03:33 PM
Author: ETurner
Subject: Shelters
Will - make sure you smile a lot when taping your video. Fallout shelters are a rather horrifying thought. ET
(http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=16&Message_ID=1778)
Date:
August 24, 1997 05:39 PM
Author: Will Richards
(will_richards@hotmail.com)
Subject: Horrifying?
ET, I find a certain amount of comfort knowing that a shelter is ready for my family and myself. Most people do not believe they are viable, they are wrong, ask any of the servicemen who survived the nuclear tests. But if you get away from that issue, inground food storage is the best. If you could build a dual purpose stillroom/storagecellar/ shelter for the same amount as a root cellar, which would you build?
(http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=16&Message_ID=1782)
Date:
August 26, 1997 05:15 PM
Author: Al Durtschi
(rcox@mail.lcc.whecn.edu)
Will,
This sounds interesting, and even exciting. I look forward to seeing your results.
Have you seen the fall out shelter at http://waltonfeed.com/old/cellar3.html ???
This might give you an idea or two.
Al
(http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=16&Message_ID=1879)
Date:
August 26, 1997 07:21 PM
Author: Will Richards
(will_richards@hotmail.com)
Al, I have seen it and it is good, but is also expensive (SQ ft price) with alot of wasted space. It is also cramped and will not work in certain soils due to the earth arching effect. The system materials we are working on has been done on a large scale by pro builders. I have personally worked with this system in another application. We are going to make it accessible to the average group of neighbors at the lowest possible cost. I will keep you up to date personally and on the forum. Thanks for the encouragement. I would also like to thank everyone who has emailed me. I will keep you informed and give the first shot at the info. Will
(http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=16&Message_ID=1881)
Date:
December 05, 1997 01:53 PM
Author: will richards
(Will_richards@hotmail.com)
Subject: Who Is Interested
Dear Doctors, I have recieved some letters of interest in this project. I need to know how many people here are interested before I continue on with this project. It is costing me more time and money then I thought. The shelter is not the problem, but the time at this computer and the software to complete the project is. I will build the shelter no matter what. I would like to know if there is really enough interest to publish the info.
If it just the folks that have already written I will just use the computor printer, package it in a binder and send photos. If there is a larger group I can justify publishling and going to a printer.
So, if you are serious and want info email me so I can get an idea about how to do this.
Thanks, will
(http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=16&Message_ID=6840)
Date:
September 18, 1997 04:05 PM
Author: Rocky
(Rocky-b@usa.net)
Subject: Crawl space
Where is the best place to put the can of seeds from Waltons? In the ground or in the freezer? Would both work?
In storing food, how about the crawl space under a house? It is fairly dry and covered with plastic. The heating and cooling pipes run under there also.
A trap door could be made to get therer easily from inside instead of having to crawl under the house from outside and have privacy.
(http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=16&Message_ID=2744)
Date:
September 18, 1997 05:31 PM
Author: Will Richards
(will_richards@hotmail.com)
Subject: Depends
My crawl space maintians a fairly constant mid fifties temp. It has never froze as long as it has heat, but it has come close. As long as the AC is working it never gets to warm. The problem is; this will I be able to manitain the heat and AC after y2k? I think not. I am therefore I am looking to the earth to temper the temp. By the way the outline is complete and I am pounding the keys trying to get the shelter guide complete. We will begin construction fo the proto type any day.
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Date:
October 27, 1997 05:00 AM
Author: Winterhawk
(wntrhawk@ptialaska.net)
Subject: Effects of freezing - wheat and other grains
I would appreciate hearing from someone with experience, about the effects upon various grains, wheat in particular, that freezing has. While ideal storage conditions are well known, what can be expected if freezing is unavoidable, or accidentally occurs? Will wheat still germinate, or does it die? If it's no longer germinable, is it still viable for grinding, and for how long? Does packaging have an effect? How about suggestions for bulk items that are/aren't temperature critical (cold in particular) in order to maximize use of temperature controlled storage versus less precious space. Any input would be welcomed.. Thanks.
(http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=16&Message_ID=4704)
Date:
October 27, 1997 08:22 AM
Author: Will_richards
(will_richards@hotmail.com)
Subject: Kill the bugs
The only effect freezing has that I know of is it kills the bugs, and some of the eggs. As far as seed goes you should ask Geri in the gardening forum.
(http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=16&Message_ID=4709)
Date:
October 27, 1997 09:09 AM
Author: Geri Guidetti
(arkinst@concentric.net)
Winterhawk, the IDEAL way to store grain for both retention of nutrients and for viability as seed is to freeze it. The key qualifier here, though, is that it must be DRY. How dry? Ideally down to 8% moisture. Ten percent is still good. Don't fret about needing instruments to measure this. Longer seeds should snap smartly, cleanly in half when bent if they are this dry. Wheat and corn seeds should shatter and powder when hit with the head of a hammer (That's the Geri Guidetti Dry Seed Test--you won't find it in a book. It is very reliable,though.) Beans, peas and other large seeds will shatter.
The low moisture levels are so critical because, as you know, water is an unusual molecule in that it expands when frozen. If there is much water left in the cytoplasm of a seed's cells, the expanding water will alter the structure of molecules containing water and can even rupture the cell walls. This effectively kills the seed. You CAN still use it for food, but it will not be viable. Poorly-dried, defrosted grains would not be candidates for grinding in mills, but would be better eaten boiled whole as rice substitutes, in chowders, soups, etc.
Your concern was about accidental freezing. If the seed has been dried well and stored in air-tight containers with silica gel or another desiccant in them, there should be zero effect on either food or germination quality....Geri Guidetti, Non-hybrid Gardening Forum moderator
(http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=16&Message_ID=4711)
Date:
October 27, 1997 05:01 PM
Author: Al Durtschi
(rcox@mail.lcc.whecn.edu)
Great post, Geri. I'd just like to say one more thing. Between seasons the major seed companies put their seeds in the deep freeze, which I understand, pretty well puts them in suspended animation.
(http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=16&Message_ID=4724)
Date:
November 27, 1997 11:54 PM
Author: Brian
(kangdown@usa.net)
Subject: Cellars in WARM CLIMES?
In my part of north Florida, average (constant) temperature 10 feet belowground is 72 degrees F. Summer highs in the high 90's, winter lows in upper 20's. Is it worth going to the effort of a root cellar with temps this high? Will any root vegetables keep for a year at this temp, and if so, how should they be stored? Presumably, keeping canned grains at this temp is better than letting them fluctuate on a daily/seasonal basis?
(http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=16&Message_ID=6436)
Date:
November 28, 1997 01:47 PM
Author: Al Durtschi
(rcox@mail.lcc.whecn.edu)
Subject: Yes, this is a warm root cellar.
Brian, 72 degrees is really warm for storing vegetables. You mentioned that it gets cool in the winter. You could vent your root cellar in the winter time to get the temperatures down and close the vents when the outside temperature rises. You could even do this on a daily basis in the winter time to take advantage of the cool nights. The following table was compiled from the book, "Root Cellaring: The Simple No-Processing Way to Store Fruits and Vegetables" By Mike and Nancy Bubel, Copyright 1979, Published by Rodale Press, Emmaus, Pennsylvania, and gives the best temperatures and humidities for storing veggies:
I should mention that keeping your dry goods in your root cellar would be a good idea if it is dry inside. You may want a two room cellar - one room with a dirt floor for your vegetables and another cement floored room for your dry goods. You may also wish to take a peak into our root celar pages to further study your options.
Al
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